Posts by Doug Mason

22

2 Cor 11:4 PROVES there were various versions of Jesus and gospels BEFORE the gospels

by yadda yadda 2 in

the gospels were written after paul's epistles.

this is commonly acknowledged by both apologist and neutural bible scholars.

yet we see that paul says clearly in 2 corinthians 11:4 that persons were preaching different versions of jesus and different gospels before the orthodox canonized gospels were written:.

Doug Mason

I do not have a list, but I have seen some Bible commentators say that about 25% of the sayings attributed to Jesus are genuinely his. I recall that one criterion that makes Jesus' words to be considered as genuine is when it is uncomfortable to the Church or unfulfilled. (There is a technical term that I do not recall). In other words, if Jesus said something that is obviously embarrassing to the church, yet they retained it, then it is considered to be genuine. ("This generation will not pass" would qualify, because by the time the story was written - and later included in the 4th century canon - it was clearly a disastrous pronouncement.)

I would appreciate any information if anyone has access to such studies.

One commentator writes that people believe that the words attributed to Jesus are genuine because the words are often written in red colour and the edge of the book has gold leaf applied.

Doug

11

Jesus use of illustrations in wt July 7-13

by What is Truth? in

this is the first time i noticed how dumb jc's use of illustrations could be if that's all he did in the context of.

matt.

13:10-15 ) so the disciples came and said to him: why do you speak to them by the use of illustrations?

Doug Mason

It was not until the 4th century that a NT list was termed Canon.

The Church operated for 400 years at least before it had a Bible. The Church created the Bible based on what it considered to be orthodox ("right beliefs"). Beliefs created the Bible, not the other way around.

Regarding the NT writers: Paul was the chronologically first writer and his claim to fame was that Jesus visited him in visions. He says so. Paul also says that he received nothing about Jesus from other men. He says so. The earliest writers after Paul (died about 64 CE) lived about the time of Jerusleam's destruction, which is a generation after Jesus' death. No one knows the names of the Gospel writers. Only later tradition assigned names; one criterion for accepting a writing into the NT was "apostolicity", so an Apostle's name was assigned to each (apart from the Greek Luke).

There was no consciousness of a biblical canon in the first century; the earliest list was by the (supposed) heretic Marcion.

Out of interest, took at the llist of books in the earliest known Codices (and their dates). (The Jews used scrolls; the Christians used the codex format.)

Doug

22

2 Cor 11:4 PROVES there were various versions of Jesus and gospels BEFORE the gospels

by yadda yadda 2 in

the gospels were written after paul's epistles.

this is commonly acknowledged by both apologist and neutural bible scholars.

yet we see that paul says clearly in 2 corinthians 11:4 that persons were preaching different versions of jesus and different gospels before the orthodox canonized gospels were written:.

Doug Mason

clarity,

I include a discussion on the Jewish expectations of the "Anointed"/"Mesach" (Messiah) in my Study at:

http://www.jwstudies.com/Did_Israel_s_ruler_come_from_Bethlehem.pdf

Jesus says that when the Son of Man comes "he" will reward. Why does Jesus not say "I" will reward? Perhaps his riding into Jerusalem in victory indicates that as the Romans said, he planned to make himself the "King" in the kingdom that some "Son of Man" would soon set up (with his friend Judas as an accomplice???). Jesus repeatedly spoke of the "Kingdom" - which he was fully expecting to come in his time - hence his continuous focus on it. He was wrong.

Doug

11

Jesus use of illustrations in wt July 7-13

by What is Truth? in

this is the first time i noticed how dumb jc's use of illustrations could be if that's all he did in the context of.

matt.

13:10-15 ) so the disciples came and said to him: why do you speak to them by the use of illustrations?

Doug Mason

It might fit in with Matthew 7:6 (“Do not give what is holy to dogs nor throw your pearls before swine.”)

Rather than ask what Jesus meant, ask yourself who were the writers and why did they say this? Whom were they talking about and talking to?

Always remember that not one of the NT writers had actually seen or heard Jesus. They were writing a generation later, and each writing group was operating with religio-political agendas that developed since Jesus' death.

We can safely say that the "Matthew" authors were part of the Jewish-Christian community. That group, originally based at Jerusalem, operated in opposition to Paul, who was based at Antioch. I do not know, but it is not impossible that the "Matthew" writing group were throwing a few barbs at their Gentile-Christian "brethren".

Looking at the Bible from the outside in provides a valuable understanding.

Doug

56

Is this a new "This Generation" or not?

by Doug Mason in

first of all i want to express my sincere gratitude to atlantis and his good friends for making this 2014 book available.. ------------.

as i see it, and i am absolutely open to contradiction, the wts appears to be giving another new meaning to this generation.

this time the term means all of his anointed followers, including his immediate disciples.

Doug Mason

Of course Russell and his friends did not have the current "understanding" of 1914. They anticipated that 1914 would usher in unprecedented peace under the rule of the Zionists.

And we can see how peaceful they are.

Doug

56

Is this a new "This Generation" or not?

by Doug Mason in

first of all i want to express my sincere gratitude to atlantis and his good friends for making this 2014 book available.. ------------.

as i see it, and i am absolutely open to contradiction, the wts appears to be giving another new meaning to this generation.

this time the term means all of his anointed followers, including his immediate disciples.

Doug Mason

I suppose the sentence that interested me is: "The apostles would soon be anointedwith holy spirit" (italics are mine). And Jesus was speaking to them "privately" (as he does to the GB). So is the WTS including the apostles (or disciples) whom Jesus was speaking to as part of "this generation"?

If it were saying this, then their "this generation" continues until there is no more "anointed one" (on Earth), making it quite open-ended and unrelated to a time period, or maybe no longer related to 1914.

Of course, the argument would be raised that when Jesus said these to his apostles (disciples?), they were not yet part of the WTS's "anointed" so they were not yet part of "this generation".

Or am I crediting the WTS with too much thinking ability in this para?

Doug

56

Is this a new "This Generation" or not?

by Doug Mason in

first of all i want to express my sincere gratitude to atlantis and his good friends for making this 2014 book available.. ------------.

as i see it, and i am absolutely open to contradiction, the wts appears to be giving another new meaning to this generation.

this time the term means all of his anointed followers, including his immediate disciples.

Doug Mason

First of all I want to express my sincere gratitude to Atlantis and his good friends for making this 2014 book available.

------------

As I see it, and I am absolutely open to contradiction, the WTS appears to be giving another new meaning to “This Generation”. This time the term means all of his “anointed followers”, including his immediate Disciples. The following is from this new book:

“This generation.” Did Jesus have in mind unbelievers? No, … when Jesus spoke of “this generation,” he had in mind his anointed followers. (“God’s Kingdom Rules!”, page 11, para 16, Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, 2014, italics in the original)

Doug

13

July 15 Awake - strange quote and i'm not sure what else...

by Gladring in

i was trying to find the source of the michael j. tyler quote in the was it designed article in the jul 15 awake, when i came across this website.. was this posted before the magazine?

is the watchtower passing someone else's work off as their own, or the other way round?.

also, can anyone find the source of the quote?

Doug Mason

OK. I have ordered a copy of Tyler's book on frogs. It's from the Western Australian Museum. My interest will be to see if it provides me with a contact to Mr tyler and see if he has any comment on his being linked to creationism. Unless one of you can find out from him first.

It's interesting that on pages 12-13 of that Awake, that once more they have to resort to a JW scientist as support.

Doug

13

July 15 Awake - strange quote and i'm not sure what else...

by Gladring in

i was trying to find the source of the michael j. tyler quote in the was it designed article in the jul 15 awake, when i came across this website.. was this posted before the magazine?

is the watchtower passing someone else's work off as their own, or the other way round?.

also, can anyone find the source of the quote?

Doug Mason

That is not a quotation mark at the end of the citation from Awake!. It is a star after the Awake's opinion sentence, pointing to poor old Charlie Darwin.

Doug

17

God supported Neco instead of His faithful king

by opusdei1972 in

if you read the chapter 23 of the book of 1 kings, you will note that josiah was one of best kings of judah.

he did many good things in favor to yahweh-worshipping.

let's read:.

Doug Mason

opus,

Read the "books" from the outside. The books of Kings and Chronicles were written at different times by different people for different religio-political purposes.

Kings was compiled during the neo-Babylonian captivity by people "explaining" their parlous state. They rewrote their history to show that this destruction (of their authority) had all come about because the nation and the royal household had not heeded the prophets (and hence the voice of the priests - at Jerusalem). Kings is part of this created history that begins with Deuteronomy and includes Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings. This is known as the Deuteronomic History. Those Kings who disobeyed the whims of the Jerusalem priesthood were "bad" but those who succumbed to their will - such as Josiah - were "good". Jeremiah started his priestly calling under Josiah and hence held him in highest regard.

Chronicles, however was written much later, during the Persian era. While the writer(s) - likely Ezra - accepted much of Kings, some of it did not suit his religio-political views. So he made subtle changes; just consider the relative stories about Manasseh (spelling?). They portray him very differently.

These differences in allegiances affected other parts of the written record. For example, it is necessary to disentangle those parts in the writings of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers which were written by those having allegiance to Aaron (those of the Aaronic priesthood) from those having allegiance to Moses.

The Bible world is not flat.

Doug